Gap Theory

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Re: Gap Theory

Postby SilentPsalmist » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:06 pm

Hi everyone.  I'm new here, and this is my first post.

Genesis 1:31a  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

If God considered everything as good, that means that the angelic fall did not occur by this point.  

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Re: Gap Theory

Postby Chette » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:27 pm

SP- welcome

The creation of Genesis 1:3-31 is primarily the plants, animals and man of this current world.  

You will notice that God says that "it was good" at the end of each day except the second day the day he created a firmament.  that is because anything that would separate God and man is not good.

When the remark in verse 31 "it was very good" the focus is on the things that were created in and on the earth for his last creation man.  For man it was very good at that point.

How about an introduction in Introductions?


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Re: Gap Theory

Postby SilentPsalmist » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:40 pm

Ah, I see how you are reading that verse.  

Had God used the term "every thing" at the end of each day, sans Day 1 and 2, then I would concede your point.  But the term "every thing" is stamped on and only on the very end of the entire six-day cycle, which is worth taking into consideration.  

I don't think that it alone refutes the gap theory, for two reasons: a) you could be right in that "every thing" just refers to the sixth day, and  b) every creation of God could be good on a conceptual basis as opposed to their current state of evil.

I have two questions:

1)  Why the need for the gap theory?
2)  What is the problem with dating the angelic fall after the six-day creation and before the fall of man?
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Re: Gap Theory

Postby Chette » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:20 am

1)  Why the need for the gap theory?  I don't think there is a need for it.   It is there inherently in scriptures.  And there are many gaps throughout scripture so there is no argument they exist.

2)  What is the problem with dating the angelic fall after the six-day creation and before the fall of man? 1)You would have to find a verse for why darkness came into God's holy Heaven without a cherub that revolted and caused his angels to fall. 2) how long do you think it took man to sin?  remember he is not holy and perfect he is just untried and natural.  the best way to answer is how long does it take you to sin?  Eve was deceived and sinned on the morning of the first day of the second week (eighth day) Adam followed say about noon (he was hungry and the woman gave him to eat it didn't take him long to sin only a few seconds see James1:14, 15) God comes in the cool of the afternoon say 5 to walk in the garden.  Calls to man finds them in sin then makes an evening type sacrifice for which he uses the skin to make them coats.  God allows then to sleep in the garden and the next morning on the Second day (ninth day) of the second week kicks them out of the garden.

If Lucifer fell after day 7th and before day 8 morning to tempt Eve to sin. I would think God would have mentioned it in scriptures for us to know.  But as a rule God does not mention things in great detail that happened before the 24/7 time measurement started in Gen 1:3-5 or that take place outside that time measurement are not mentioned until you get to Revelation (i.e. see Isa 14:12; Ezk 28, Job 38:7).  By the end of the book of Revelation the 24/7 day time measurement will be done away with.

Now if you believe Job 38:7 when did God create the Angelic beings?

Genesis one 1:1-2  General Creation

Genesis 1:3-31 Specific creation

Genesis 1:3-5 24 hour Days are started at verse 3-5 and not before. Seven day weeks are established Genesis 2:1.  Weeks repeat so no need to keep numbering the days after that ( I do so to show how quickly Adam sinned).

Genesis 2:6-8 Firmament created Why if man is innocent and there be no other creation yet (except inanimate creation heaven and earth) does God need to surround a very large section of heaven in a container?  I only gave you a spiritual reason in the last post but a more practical is to keep darkness from spreading.

All from 9 -31 has to do solely with the earth that originally was not made dark and void.  It is a creation of animated life in the waters, sky and land.  Everything was good that God had done on the earth.

Even the firmament from one stand point (God's) was a good thing.

Proverbs 8:22-24  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.   I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.   When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Eden

Postby Harley » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:50 pm

DISCLAIMER:
What I have done here is nothing noteworthy or deserving any compliments or praise. Anyone with access to a concordance could (and should) do what I have done, it was not that difficult. As of this point of time I neither agree nor disagree with the "Gap Theory."

I am in complete agree with the following statement made by Chette:
"So all a man needs to know about God, Salvation, man's nature, the Devil, God's will can be found in the pages of our preserved English AV Bibles."

I have always been fascinated by the creation story. I have also, like Rick and Steve, been curious and confused over what is called the "gap" theory.

After reading this entire thread I have decided to re-examine the topic in light of some of the information shared in this thread.

I found 19 verses containing the word Eden:

(Gen 2:8)  And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Chette has suggested that "when you read "in Eden" it is a reference to the earth, it is a name God called the earth"

God planted (not created) a garden on the earth (Eden), in the east and put Adam in this garden.

(Gen 2:10)  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

Chette has suggested that  "when you read "east of Eden" he is speaking of the Garden he planted east in Eden."

I notice here there is a distinct mention of a garden and a river that "went out of Eden" or as Chette has suggested the earth. The river flowing "out of Eden" or the earth divides four heads.

(Gen 2:15)  And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Perhaps many of you were taught about the "Garden of Eden" as if to suggest the name of the garden was Eden. Notice the choice of words very carefully please: God took the man (Adam) and put him into the garden OF Eden. If the garden was named or called Eden, would we have not been told that? Would not the verse read something such as "put him into the garden, called/named Eden?"

God took the Adam and put him into the garden he planted in the east of the earth (Gen 2:8).

I have also heard there was a country/region/place called Eden with a garden also called Eden. I cannot find any scriptural basis for this in reference to the point of time being discussed, but if I have missed it I am open for correction. I do see later, and will highlight, where I see Eden being used as a proper name for people and places past the earth.

(Gen 3:23)  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

(Gen 3:24)  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God sent Adam (and Eve) out of or "forth" from the garden he planted in the east of the earth (Gen 2:8). There is still no reason not to believe that Eden is God's name for the earth in its Gen 1:2, post 6 literal day (24 hour) creation week condition/state. At the east of the garden God planted in the east of the earth (Gen 2:8), God placed Cherubims. The garden is located in the east of the earth and on the east side of the garden is the Cherubims.

(Gen 4:16)  And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD , and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Notice there is no mention of a garden here whatsoever. The land of Nod is on the east, or in the east of the earth (Eden.)

(Isa 51:3) For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD ; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

Here we are told that God will make the wilderness of Zion "like Eden" and the desert "like the garden." Notice two separate references, one to Eden and another to the garden that I think is referring us back to the one God planted in Eden (Gen 2:8). If I read this correctly God is going to make the wilderness and desert of Zion like the earth and the garden were prior to Adam's sin.

(Eze 28:13)  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

(Eze 31:9)  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

(Eze 31:16)  I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

(Eze 31:18)  To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD .

I suppose this verses could lead one to come to the conclusion that "Eden" was the name of "the garden of God" if read alone without having read any of the prior verses where Eden occurs (precept upon precept?). I read this as two separate places, in Eden is the garden of God. In other words in the garden God planted in Gen 2:8 on the earth, which God has been calling Eden. Eden in the sense of the earth prior to Adam's sin.

(Eze 36:35)  And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

This is an interesting verse because God is saying that the heathens - the "they" in the verse - will compare the previously ruined, "desolate" places, to the garden that I believe is the one planted in Gen 2:8, in "Eden."

(Joel 2:3)  A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Notice the contrast here: the garden planted in Eden (Earth) in Gen 2:8 versus the desolate wilderness.

Eden also occurs in these verses as the names of individuals, from what I can tell.
(Eze 27:23)  Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants.

(2Ch 31:15)  And next him were Eden, and Miniamin, and Jeshua, and Shemaiah, Amariah, and Shecaniah, in the cities of the priests, in their set office, to give to their brethren by courses, as well to the great as to the small:

(2Ch 29:12)  Then the Levites arose, Mahath the son of Amasai, and Joel the son of Azariah, of the sons of the Kohathites: and of the sons of Merari, Kish the son of Abdi, and Azariah the son of Jehalelel: and of the Gershonites; Joah the son of Zimmah, and Eden the son of Joah:

My assumption is these verses also discusses an individual or individuals/families, and not a physical location on the earth or the earth itself:
(2Ki 19:12)  Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Thelasar?

(Isa 37:12)  Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Telassar?

(Amo 1:5)  I will break also the bar of Damascus, and cut off the inhabitant from the plain of Aven, and him that holdeth the sceptre from the house of Eden: and the people of Syria shall go into captivity unto Kir, saith the LORD .

Conclusion: I see no error in what Chette has shared with us concerning Eden. It does appear that God used Eden to describe earth. Later, men chose to name children Eden and presumably entire families/tribes/houses Eden.

Thank you Chette, I appreciate what you have shared on this topic so far and I look forward to examining the topic further.

I still have more to study, but for now:

"So all a man needs to know about God, Salvation, man's nature, the Devil, God's will can be found in the pages of our preserved English AV Bibles."

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Re: Gap Theory

Postby Chette » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:13 pm

After all my time studying I can come to a solid conclusion that a Gap cannot clearly be proven from Scriptures.

I know there is a lot more to God and his abode, the heavenly Tabernacle and all the beings with him, including horses and chariots than the scriptures give us a view of.

though we may differ on opinion, I feel on this side of Eternity we may never know for sure of a gap between Gen1:1 and Gen 1:2 until we go to be with the Lord.  

And then we may find it is not so important after all.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Re: Gap Theory

Postby George » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:29 pm

Aloha Brother Chette,

I reached the same conclusion (after a thorough study) years ago. There are some things that God, in His infinite wisdom, has chosen not to reveal to us (though He could have). I believe in the Genesis account of creation and lean towards a Gap (for the reasons presented, etc.), but I refuse to argue or debate the issue since there is so little Scripture dealing with the specific "details" of God's existence (and the existence of Satan, the angels, the seraphims, the cherubims, etc.) before the creation as recorded in the Holy Bible.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


I believe the record that God has given us concerning His creation, but instead of arguing and debating about exactly HOW it all came about, I choose to think and meditate about WHAT God has promised for the future. We shouldn't become mired in what God did in the past; instead we should be looking forward to what God has in store for us in the future.


Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
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. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: Gap Theory

Postby Chette » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:24 pm

You said it right there George.  "I believe the record that God has given us concerning His creation, but instead of arguing and debating about exactly HOW it all came about, I choose to think and meditate about WHAT God has promised for the future. We shouldn't become mired in what God did in the past; instead we should be looking forward to what God has in store for us in the future."

That is exactly what is it we should be doing.

I think it was that guy, Paul the Apostle to the Gentile, who said,

Col 3:1, 2 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.   Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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