Oracles - Email conversation

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Oracles - Email conversation

Postby Chette » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:32 am

the following is part of an email conversation that was partially posted on Paul Becker's "A voice in the Wilderness" weekly emailing VW: Q/A -persecution/music (091)‏.  He is also the author of the VW edition of the Bible.  I had been seeking his knowledge on Bible verses on a certain subject that he accused me of being compromised because I did not rebuke a certain group for their use of modern musical instruments and styles for worship.  As I sought his guidance on what Bible verse to use I said,  "that when I spoke to others to correct them I wanted to speak as the Oracles of God, by using Bible verses to do the correcting for the Scriptures are good for correction".  He did well in answering but most of it was from his own understanding using some scripture to support his ideas but not any use for correction on proper worship.

But it was my use of the word Oracles that sent him flying into orbit.  He politely derided me for using it saying he didn't understand why I would use such a word and that is was Unbiblical.  here is Paul Becker's response for my using "oracles"

VW ANSWER:
First of all, let's make a little correction here. The word "oracle" is  not a Biblical term. And I'm not sure how/why you have used it. I know, the KJV uses it, along with some other translations. But it is occultic and demonic. It is a place/process whereby, through various means, a practitioner becomes "high", in a hypnotic state or trance or what-have-you, to emit vocal noises to whatever the purpose of the demon is.  http://www.a-voice.org/qa/kjoracle.htm#oracle


But Here is my reply to Paul B of "A voice in the wilderness" fame.

Dear Brother Paul,

Concerning your reply on the word Oracles.  You said it was unbiblical, occultic and demonic, and you gave a pagan understanding of the word and not God's understanding, which would be far more important than yours or mine.

Your understanding of that word was based on a definition that came from outside of the Bible.

Two things I see in the AV that all other versions lack including the VW edition.

1) the AV has within itself its own built-in dictionary able to define any word in it by the context of where any given word is found.
2) the AV has it own built-in supernatural cross-reference system.  (All center column and page footer cross references are based on a group or denominations particular teaching. depending on who published, sponsored or had their study guide inserted into it.)

Now lets see how God's word defines the word Oracle and Oracles by looking at all the usages of the word as they are found in the Holy Bible.

If the word Oracle is found in the Bible then it is a Bible term.  No amount of humanistic or sophist reasoning will make it unbiblical unless you remove it from the Bible when talking about it.

Let's start by looking at how many times the word Oracle (found only in the OT) and Oracles (found only in the NT) are used in the Holy Bible.  17 times the word Oracle is used in the Old Testament, and 4 times is the word Oracles used in the New Testament.

Let’s get a little understanding of the English word - Oracle means to utter or speak. Oracles is plural so that is utterings or that which was spoken

Oracle - let’s just see how the Bible uses it and base our definition on what the Bible says and not on Webster, Pagan religions or Humanistic understanding of the word.

What was uttered or spoken of by God?  

Why the Holy Bible, the words of God, from the Genesis to Revelation it was all spoken by God to Holy men who recorded them, and God preserved them for us today.  God spoke words to Moses, the prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the apostles and Paul.  God preserved them by His own power through holy men even unto this generation.  Man has God’s utterances  today so if man needed he could seek and find God’s word on any given subject.  I.e. dress, music, prayer, etc etc etc . . .Where are these recorded oracles?  The Holy Bible.

2Sam 16:23 And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, [was] as if a man had enquired at the oracle of God: so [was] all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom. This use lets us know it was AS IF (these two little words if understood properly would clear up a bunch of false teachings today) he had sought the word of God on this.  We do know by the Bible all that was done that it was the will of God.

1Kings 6:5 And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, [against] the walls of the house round about, [both] of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about:
1Kings 6:16 And he built twenty cubits on the sides of the house, both the floor and the walls with boards of cedar: he even built [them] for it within, [even] for the oracle, [even] for the most holy [place].
1Kings 6:19 And the oracle he prepared in the house within, to set there the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
1Kings 6:20 And the oracle in the forepart [was] twenty cubits in length, and twenty cubits in breadth, and twenty cubits in the height thereof: and he overlaid it with pure gold; and [so] covered the altar [which was of] cedar.
1Kings 6:21 So Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.
1Kings 6:22 And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that [was] by the oracle he overlaid with gold.
1Kings 6:23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims [of] olive tree, [each] ten cubits high.
1Kings 6:31 And for the entering of the oracle he made doors [of] olive tree: the lintel [and] side posts [were] a fifth part [of the wall].
1Kings 7:49 And the candlesticks of pure gold, five on the right [side], and five on the left, before the oracle, with the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs [of] gold,
1Kings 8:6 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims.
1Kings 8:8 And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy [place] before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day.
2Chron 3:16 And he made chains, [as] in the oracle, and put [them] on the heads of the pillars; and made an hundred pomegranates, and put [them] on the chains.
2Chron 4:20 Moreover the candlesticks with their lamps, that they should burn after the manner before the oracle, of pure gold;
2Chron 5:7 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy [place, even] under the wings of the cherubims:
2Chron 5:9 And they drew out the staves [of the ark], that the ends of the staves were seen from the ark before the oracle; but they were not seen without. And there it is unto this day.
Psalm 28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.

All these verses teach us that the Holy of Holies, where in the Ark of the covenant was placed, was called the Oracle of God. This was the place where the Mercy seat was the place where God dwelt among his people Israel.

So far nothing unbiblical, occultic or demonic about the use of the word oracle.

Now let’s look at how the NT uses the word Oracles

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:  what was spoken to the Jews from mount Sinai?  What was it they received at mount Sinai? the Words of God were spoken and given unto them in Sinai.  All the commandments, statues, precepts, judgements, and laws, the word of God, the Holy Scriptures.  So from this use we understand that Oracles are the words of God given to Moses for all Israel as found in the Holy Bible.

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. again the context would let us know the Oracles are the Holy Scriptures.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat
. again the context leaves us to see that it is the Holy Bible, the Holy Scriptures including that written of by Paul.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.  Here a Christian is to speak as the oracles of God, he is to speak forth the words of God.  He is to give God's word on any issue, circumstance or situation.

Now what I have showed you is what the word of God says about and defines the word Oracle and there is absolutely nothing unbiblical, occultic or demonic about it.

Knowing that God's word defined the word Oracle a bit differently than you had in your article shows that God is able to define the word exactly as He wanted and preserved it that way.

To say that the use of the word Oracle is wrong is totally your opinion but to call it unbiblical, occultic and demonic without seeing how the scriptures defined the word shows your insincere handling of the word of God.  In so doing all you did was give the readers of your articles an opinion of a mere man and not the word of God.  We can convince men that things are what we want them to be without the word of God as you did concerning the word Oracles but with the word of God we show forth what God says, that is we show forth and speak as the Oracles of God.

I think we can conclude that there was nothing unbiblical, occultic or demonic in the use of the word Oracles or Oracle as found in the Holy Bible.  At best you were just mistaken.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



CN


Having searched the scriptures we have found that the word Oracles is indeed a Biblical term we also see that it is not occultic or demonic but holy and pure.  It means exactly what the Greek and Hebrew words meant to utter, utterings, spoke, speaking, spoken, and not once did it refer to or was it ever used in a way that was pagan, occultic or demonic.

If Paul Becker had only read the Bible he would know that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the way God's word used the word "Oracles" and he would have known that the Oracles is a Biblical term defined and preserved in our Bible for us today.

  Ps 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Re: Oracles - Email conversation

Postby George » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:56 pm

Aloha Brother Chette,

Your encounter with Paul Becker is instructive as to how thoughtless and careless most of today’s so-called "Christian commentators" are in the use of the word “Bible” or “Biblical”. Notice how Becker makes the incredibly outrageous, unreasonable, and illogical claim that “the word ‘oracle’ is not a Biblical term”:

VW ANSWER:
"First of all, let's make a little correction here. The word "oracle" is not a Biblical term. And I'm not sure how/why you have used it. I know, the KJV uses it, along with some other translations. But it is occultic and demonic. It is a place/process whereby, through various means, a practitioner becomes "high", in a hypnotic state or trance or what-have-you, to emit vocal noises to whatever the purpose of the demon is." http://www.a-voice.org/qa/kjoracle.htm#oracle

Becker’s “little correction” is nothing short of being both senseless and absurd. How can the word “oracle” not be “a Biblical term” when it was in the original AV1611 and can be continually found in all of the printed copies of the Holy Bible throughout the 1600’s, 1700’s, 1800’s, and the 1900’s? How can a word (i.e. “oracles”) that is found in all of the printed Holy Bibles for over 400 years NOT be “a Biblical term”? How is it possible for the word “oracle” to not to be “a Biblical term”, unless Becker does not consider the Holy Bible to be a “Bible”?

When dealing with today’s “Christian sophists” the first thing we must do is to get them to DEFINE the words that they use. For instance: just exactly what is Paul Becker’s definition of the word “BIBLE”? Does the word “BIBLE” mean a BOOK that someone can hold in their hands, or is it a non-existent abstract figment of someone’s imagination? How can genuine Bible believers conduct an intelligent discussion with someone about the "Bible" (or whether something is “Biblical” or not) when their idea (or belief) of what a "Bible" consists of is a figment of their imagination?

If the word “BIBLE” is in reference to an existing BOOK that someone can hold in their hands then the word “oracle” clearly isa Biblical term”. But, if the word “Bible” is in reference to an imaginary book that only exists in someone’s mind then that person (in this case Paul Becker) can declare that “The word "oracle" is not a Biblical term”; because, as far as they are concerned, the word does not exist in their fictitious and hypothetical “bible”!

After many years of fruitless debates and disputes with “Christian sophists” I have finally learned to “mark them” and then “avoid them”, because trying to reason with such people is an exercise in futility; and, sad to say, there can be no spiritual edification or profit in such an undertaking.


Romans 16:17  Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Titus 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
George Anderson    http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/

. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: Oracles - Email conversation

Postby PeanutGallery » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:53 pm

I tend to shy away from people who state along the line, "This word in the KJB would be better rendered as ..."
At that point, I get turned off, realizing that any deception could easily slip in the future.
1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed with the precious blood of Christ
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Re: Oracles - Email conversation

Postby Chette » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:09 pm

My opinion is this guy and many like him say something is not biblical but maybe what they want to say it is not Christian.  the forms of what has been translated pagan oracles are not Christian and that is what Paul Becker showed was the pagan religious rituals that later were called oracles when they translated them from other language to English.

the the AV use never once even alluded to any pagan, demonic or occultic use when it used the word.

It was a bit arrogant to think that he had something to "correct".  People who are always correcting others with their opinions are usually ones who feel they have all the answer or know all the Bible better than the rest of us.

If you all didn't know Paul Becker spends a lot of time in front of his TV watching reality TV, Vampire and werewolf shows and the like.  He admits to it often when he writes.  I would have to conclude that he is a bit compromised spiritually because of that and then for his constant need to correct the Bible.

Yes George you are correct if we can get them to define what Bible means it may be enlightening to them once they look at their own definition.  and it usually is not a whole complete book without error that they can turn to as the final authority for all things in their lives.

I have concluded for many it is as Isaiah said,  Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.   Isa 41:26
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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