The Church

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The Church

Postby Chette » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:23 pm

I was listening to a pastor friend of mine preach on how the church (a particular oragnization not the organism, a building not the body) that when the members in the church did not listen to the holy ghost or were no longer guided by the holy ghost it was a dead church.  

But then how are we to judge if they are nor guided or listening to the spirit?  

Strange to here him say that there could be all sorts o activity and programs (which could be a result of listening tot he spirit) but that ws not proof they were alive.

I understand what he was saying however he had to redefine the term "Church" and once he did that and made the church a building or meeting place he was no longer on biblical ground.

Because even if "I" the church was to grieve or quench the spirit by not being guided by him, I am still alive in Christ.  I am not dead if I an not guided by the spirit.  But a local meeting place of believers is dead if they are not guided by the spirit.  to me the local building called a church was never alive to begin with.

The whole thing was a confused mess and did more harm to the doctrine of the church and this by a man who claims he is a bible believer.

It seemed like the whole thing was done just to get the attention of those in churches (buildings and organizations) who aren't happy to come over to his church (building and organization).

Anyone care to give some comments on this please feel free.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Re: The Church

Postby George » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:47 am

Aloha Brother Chette,

Your observations are both scriptural and doctrinally sound. Generally speaking, church practice and conduct in present day U.S.A. has very little to do with the practice and conduct of the scriptural historic churches of God as portrayed in the Holy Bible.

•  The church was purchased by Christ and belongs to Him [Acts 20:28; Ephesians 1:12-14; 5:25]
•  The church is in Christ [Romans 12:5; 1Corinthians 1:30; 2Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 1:22; 3:28;  Ephesians 2:10, 13; 3:6; Philippians 1:1; 4:21; Colossians 1:2, 28;  1Thessalonians 1:1; 2:14; 2Thessalonians 1:1]
•  The church is Christ’s body - “of His flesh, and of His bones” [Ephesians 5:30; Colossians 1:24]
•  Christ is the Head of the church [Ephesians 1:22; 5:23; Colossians 1:18]

Did the Lord Jesus Christ die for a “dead church”? Did He shed His blood for a “dead church”? Can anything that is “in Christ” (the Author of life itself) be “dead”? Can that which is “of His flesh, and of His bones” possibly be “dead”? Is the Lord the Head of a “dead church”? I trow not! Did you ever notice that, during His ministry upon earth, no one ever died in Christ’s presence and no one stayed dead if they had died outside of His presence and He was called upon to save them.  

This is one of the many problems with preachers in America today - even those who profess to believe in the Holy Bible – they USE the Bible (i.e. a verse or two) merely as a launching pad to launch off into a favorite cherished subject or promote a personal “pet doctrine” which has little or no connection to the actual historical context or setting (i.e. the specific time, place, conditions, or circumstances), and which often has little relation to the specific issue being presented within the pages of the Holy Bible.

The wholesale failure to rightly divide the word of truth (i.e. “expository” preaching and teaching) by many of today’s pastors, teachers, and commentators has led to the loss of genuine spiritual edification taking place in the minds and hearts of many believers. The inordinate emphasis placed upon Christian celebrities by most of today’s professing Christians and the excessive dependence upon a pastor’s, or a teacher’s, or a commentator’s personal understanding of spiritual issues has crippled true individual spiritual discernment and understanding amongst the vast majority of professing Christians today.

Most of today’s “pastors” in the U.S.A. have been trained to USE the Scriptures to suit their own personal needs or desires and accomplish their own selfish ends. As “stewards”, they have no shame in failing to “rightly divide the word of truth” [2Timothy 2:15]; and they have very little fear of God when it comes to corrupting God’s holy word by “handling the word of God deceitfully”, or craftily using the Scriptures to teach the traditions of men (i.e. their private interpretations) rather than teaching God’s words as they are found within the pages of The Book – i.e. in their historical and doctrinal context - which would then be spiritually edifying to the church.  
2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

These “pastors” totally ignore First Corinthians Chapter Three, where the Apostle Paul warns and admonishes men in the ministry (i.e. “ministers” - “labourers together with God”) concerning their stewardship of “the temple of God” - that they had better be extremely careful how they “build” upon “the foundation” that he (Paul), as “a wise masterbuilder” laid [1Corinthians 3:1-23].

Instead of being concerned about being obedient to God’s word and being faithful ministers of Christ, these men are more concerned about numbers, buildings, and conforming to the American model of church governing, structure, and conduct rather than following the scriptural examples found within the pages of the Holy Bible. And, sad to say, much of what passes for “preaching” today is actually “a cloke of covetousness” full of “guile” and “deceit” designed to draw the brethren away from the Lord Jesus Christ’s Headship and the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and bring them under the authority of a man or a religious system (i.e. Denominationalism), rather than teaching them that the Christians’ FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice are God’s words - which can be found within the pages of the Holy Bible (i.e. the King James Bible).  
1 Thessalonians 2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:
2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

According to the Holy Bible the early New Testament church was an “ORGANISM” (a Living “BODY”) which was Spiritual in Nature. Within the context of Ephesians 5:23-32, the Apostle Paul referred to the church as a “great mystery”. [Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.].

A New Testament church is meant to FUNCTION as a BODY – NOT A BUSINESS – loving one another; caring for each other; and having one mind (having Christ’s mind). A New Testament church is a BODY with THE LORD JESUS CHRIST as its only HEAD; how can it possibly be “dead”?

Any church can emulate the “FORM” (copy certain practices of the early New Testament church) without actually performing the Scriptural PURPOSE and FUNCTION that God intended for His BODY. When a church becomes an “ORGANIZATION” (conforming to worldly institutions in its design, purpose, and practice) it inevitably starts down “the Ladder of Decent and Deceit”, which always leads to a departure from the truth, false doctrine, heresy, blaspheme, and ungodliness; and, at some point, it ceases to function as an “ORGANISM”, and eventually ends up shipwrecked and reprobate concerning the faith.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
George Anderson    http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/

. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: The Church

Postby Chette » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:09 pm

Thanks George.

I know this man and even had submitted under him and to hear such false teaching I was shocked.  But at the same time I also knew he did not recognize he was actually teaching a false doctrine.  And if I gently try to point this out I shutter to think what will happen.

Since I was able to get Richard to take our church I have been working more because no one is really helping furloughed missionaries survive.  we have had to rely on the sweat of our own brow and the food bank to survive.  We are thankful for my college house parents who have been very helpful in giving us a house to stay in rent fee but bills must be paid to live in a house.

I had a man I am working for tell me that he can trust me to enter his house and not have to worry about me stealing anything.  (this is a immature Christian man).  I replied to his remark that I did not care or worry about what any man knows it is God that I worry about.  It is what God knows about me that puts fear in me.  while men look on the outward I fear him who knows my heart.

While many of these pastors today are not so much worried about what anyone including God knows about them.  Sin and Immorality have become something normal to a point that when these men get into error they don't even know that what they teach is in error.  

Surely Christ is coming to remove the church for many are "Falling away" from the truth of God's word.  Even professed AV bible believers
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Re: The Church

Postby George » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Aloha Brother Chette,

A few more observations from the old curmudgeon.

THE DEADLY DUO IN THE MODERN CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION - "IGNORANCE" & "TOLERANCE"

Just as there are two sides to every coin, there are two sides to every congregation in the modern day Christian churches – i.e. “Ignorance” and “Tolerance”.

IGNORANCE
•  Ignorance of the Bible (the Holy words of God, i.e. Scripture)
•  Ignorance of Scriptural Precepts & Principles
•  Ignorance of Bible Doctrine
•  Ignorance of Church History
•  Ignorance of the transmission of the text of the Holy Bible

We live in a Humanistic Society which has produced a Godless Culture that is founded upon a “Tolerance” of all things EVIL! Christians’ Ignorance of the Bible (i.e. the Holy words of God) has led to the modern day churches’ (i.e. the congregations’) Tolerance of Evil.

TOLERANCE
•  A Tolerance of Leaven
•  A Tolerance of Every False Way
•  A Tolerance of False Doctrine (including “divers and strange doctrines”)
•  A Tolerance of Heresy
•  A Tolerance of Prideful Preachers
•  A Tolerance of Authoritarian & Dictatorial Preachers
•  A Tolerance of Preachers Who Add to, or Subtract from, or Change God’s Holy Words
•  A Tolerance of False Accusers
•  A Tolerance of Those Who Cause Division
•  A Tolerance of Those Who Sow Discord Among Brethren
•  A Tolerance of False Teachers
•  A Tolerance of Heretics

•  A Tolerance of Sin
      o  Tolerance of Religious Pride
      o  Tolerance of Lying
      o  Tolerance of Unrighteous Judgment
      o  Tolerance of Injustice
      o  Tolerance of Idolatry
      o  Tolerance of Covetousness
      o  Tolerance of Unrighteousness
      o  Tolerance of Wickedness
      o  Tolerance of Fornication
      o  Tolerance of Adultery
      o  Tolerance of EVIL

I could go on and on, but what's the sense? In these days of unbelief and apostasy, it is extremely difficult for a genuine Bible believer not to become a Pharisee (i.e. self-righteous) and end up being “Intolerant” toward sinners. “Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth” [1Corinthians 8:1]. Because we know the truth, we must be extremely careful to balance our knowledge of the truth with Christian charity whenever we interact with people (lost or saved) – this requires spiritual discernment, understanding and wisdom (sadly, because of my stubbornness and hard-headiness, some things that I lacked for most of my life as a Christian).

Who is responsible for the tragic state of the churches of God in the Western world? The "pastors", because they have failed to FEED Christ's sheep; and the congregation (ordinary believers) because they have failed to LOVE God's Holy word enough to study on their own so that they might know the truth!

Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Psalms 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Amos 5:15 Hate
the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
George Anderson    http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/

. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: The Church

Postby Chette » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:37 pm

since I have been back I have had more time to check out the radio church preachers and American church teaching.  I am just shocked with the baby food and tickling ear sermons but very little truly mature teaching.  So much focus on preaching the need for maturity but no real food for the spiritually mature.  It sounds as if the current state is that all are babes.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Re: The Church

Postby Sarge » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:54 am

Christians today are so accustomed to ear-tickling milky sermonettes, that they can't endure sound doctrine any longer. Sad.
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Re: The Church

Postby George » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:58 am

Aloha Brother Sammy,

I have compared the Israelites (Hebrews/Jews) and the church of God (Christians) before and the similarities between the two are astounding! The following verses are historically and doctrinally in relation to the Jews in Jeremiah's time, but the spiritual equivalence to the churches of God and Christians in the U.S.A. today is remarkable.

Jeremiah 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?


If you substitute "teachers" for "prophets" and "pastors" for "priests" it fits perfectly! The parallel between the nation of Israel and the church of God is simply amazing. But you'll notice that God doesn't let the "people" off, or excuse their conduct, simply because their leaders were corrupt! The problem today is the same as way back then - God's people "love to have it so", and so the departure from the faith and from the Holy words of God will continue on unabated.

2 Timothy 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.  

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


2 Peter 3:3 ¶ Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 ¶ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

George Anderson    http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/

. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: The Church

Postby Sarge » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:47 pm

The Scripture you gave is right on target.  This is exactly what I was looking for to share with God's flock tomorrow (Sunday). Thank you, Bro. George!
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