Tongues vs prophesy

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Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:41 am

1Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Cor 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
==========================
I don't understand why the unbelievers would reject message in their language (v23), but not reject the prophecy (24)?
You'd think they would call the believers mad in both v.23, 24.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:45 am

The unlearned could refer to those who could not understand the language, but why call them mad?
Unknown tongue is not used, so I assume they understood the language.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby Chette » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:27 pm

In the church assembly we are attending there is no reason to have tongues spoken either unknown or known.

The word of God in the AV in clear English is fully understandable.

If one wont hear the word in their own language they will not hear it if it were spoken in a tongue interpreted or not.

The importance of God's words in His book that contain all His words should not be over looked nor should it be made complicated by men's opinions, assumptions and interpretations.

The AV is already interpreted for us we need only to study and apply it to our lives.  If asked we need to teach it just a simply as it is in His book.

Ps 119:140 ¶ Thy word [is] very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
Psalm 49:3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart [shall be] of understanding.

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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:31 pm

Chette wrote:In the church assembly we are attending there is no reason to have tongues spoken either unknown or known.

The word of God in the AV in clear English is fully understandable.

I agree, thanks.
However in regards to the Corinthian church in chap.14, why would the unbelievers reject the message spoken in their known language (v23), but not reject the prophecy (24), apparently in their own language?
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby Chette » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:46 pm

like today we should check the messengers message to the word of God whether it be in a tongue or their own language.  the message is rejected or accepted by its comparison to the Words of God.  And furthermore, prophecy itself was not said to be accepted on the merit of the messenger it was to be judged by those in the assembly, 1Cor 14:29  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.  How do these judge?  It is by the words of God that was already revealed to them.

We cannot be sure what the local church at that time did or how it acted.  Paul tells us unknown tongues and prophecy was given forth and the others were to judge it.  What we really need to do is learn what these same scriptures teach for us today.  Many have made false teachings with these scriptures by imposing what was for a historical church that does not apply to the current church.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby George » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:51 pm

Aloha Brother Peanut gallery,

Sorry for the long delay in replying to your Post but I am just getting over a really nasty cold that developed into a mild case of pneumonia. I started to answer your Post in late December and soon discovered that I needed to explain (in far greater detail) several scriptural points before answering your question. You always manage to ask questions that are 'outside the box', and in this case, you got me to thinking about the controversial subject of “tongues” in the Holy Bible.

This reply has some overlap with my Thread on TONGUE, TONGUES, & UNKNOWN TONGUE because I cut & pasted some of my reply to you into that Thread; but I needed to post the Thread before replying to you in order to supply all of the reasons I believe as I do concerning the controversial subject of “tongues” in the Holy Bible.

First, a very short answer to your inquiry: “tongues” (spoken languages) are manifested in three (3) different ways in Scripture.

No. 1: A “tongue” (a spoken language) that is known to both the speaker and the hearers, and which both can understand (This is how people normally communicate between each other - there is nothing unique or out of the ordinary in the discourse).

No. 2: A “tongue” (a spoken language) that is not known to the speaker but which is known and understood by the hearers (Such an occurrence serves as “a sign” - primarily to the hearer and secondarily to the speaker. See Acts 2:3-4, 11; Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6).

No. 3: “an unknown tongue” (a spoken language) that is known to a speaker but which the hearers do not know and can not understand (which serves no useful purpose, i.e. no edification or profit takes place, and which only leads to confusion, disorder, and chaos – unless it is interpreted).  

An “unknown tongue” (a spoken language) is rejected by the hearers because they do not understand what is being said; whereas prophesy is accepted by the hearers because it is spoken in a “tongue” (a spoken language) that they do understand and they are edified [1Corinthians 14:3].  

Having established some parameters concerning the word “tongue” in the Holy Bible, let’s proceed to rightly dividing the verses which you supplied.
Tongues vs prophesy

by PeanutGallery » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:41 pm

1Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

1Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

In the Old Testament God promised that He would “speak unto this people” - “With men of other tongues” [Isaiah 28:11-12]. Just WHO was the Lord referring to when He said “this people”? Was He referring to just anybody, or was He referring to just “His people”, i.e. Hebrews/Israelites/Jews [1Samuel 12:22; Deuteronomy 7:6-9; 14:1-2]? Context always determines meaning; and within the context of 1 Corinthians 14:21 the mention of “this people” is clearly in reference to God’s people, i.e. the Jews. And since the Scriptures state that “tongues are for a sign” [1 Corinthians 14:22] and that “the Jews require a sign” [1 Corinthians 1:22], it is manifest that the primary purpose of the “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages that were not known to the speakers but which were known and understood by the hearers - as in Acts 2:1-11; Acts 10:44-48; and Acts 19:1-7 – and which qualified as genuine “signs” from God), was to convince the Jews of the apostles time that the speaker was from God and that the words which he spoke were true.

Now that we know WHAT kind of “tongues” served as “signs” from God; and specifically WHO those “tongues” were intended for (i.e. Hebrews/Israelites/Jews), we can proceed to finish our review of the verses which you cited.
1Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

WHAT kind of “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) is the Apostle Paul referring to in Verse 23? They can’t be the kind of “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) where both the speakers and the hearers know and understand what is being said (as described in No. 1 above).

No. 1: A “tongue” (a spoken language) that is known to both the speaker and the hearers, and which both can understand (This how people normally communicate between each other - there is nothing unique or out of the ordinary in the discourse).

And they can’t be the kind of “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) which are described in No. 2 above, because if they were, they would have truly been “a sign” from God and the hearers would have been “amazed” (as they were in Acts 2:7), or they would have been “astonished” (as they were in Acts 10:45), rather than think that all of the speakers were “mad”!  

No. 2: A “tongue” (a spoken language) that is not known to the speaker but which is known and understood by the hearers (Such an occurrence serves as “a sign” - primarily to the hearer and secondarily to the speaker. See Acts 2:3-4, 11; Acts 10:46; Acts 19:6).

IF the “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) of 1 Corinthians 14:23 were truly “signs” from God, at least some of the ‘unbelievers’ (especially unbelieving Jews) would surely have believed. And yet Paul said that IF “all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?” The “unlearned” were believers who may have been ignorant of some portion of God’s word, and as such needed to hear it taught in a “tongue” (i.e. a spoken language) which they knew and understood in order to receive edification. The “unbelievers” would be both Jews and Gentiles who had not believed the Gospel of the grace of God, and as such needed to hear it in a “tongue” (i.e. a spoken language) which they knew and understood, since “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” [Romans 10:17].

IF the “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) of 1 Corinthians 14:23 are neither the kind of “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) which I described in Nos. 1 & 2 above , then they must be the kind of “tongues” which are described in No. 3 above. And as such should not have been spoken unless they were interpreted so the hearers could be edified.    

No. 3: “an unknown tongue” (a spoken language) that is known to a speaker but which the hearers do not know and can not understand (which serves no useful purpose, i.e. no edification or profit takes place, and which only leads to confusion, disorder, and chaos – unless it is interpreted).  

Since the Apostle Paul is referring to the third kind of “tongue” (a spoken language as described in No. 3 above) in 1 Corinthians 14:23, the interpretation of the verse becomes clear. For example: If the speakers in the church were speaking in “tongues” (spoken languages) which they knew and understood (such as Hebrew or Aramaic) and “there come in” (the church) “those that are unlearned, or unbelievers” who do not know or understand those “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) “will they not say that ye are mad”? Of course they would! So what was Paul’s solution?

1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

QUESTION: How could the speaker be expected to “interpret” an “unknown tongue” unless he knew and understood it? It is quite obvious that although the hearers did not know or understand the “unknown tongue” the speaker did! Also, just in case someone tries to separate “an unknown tongue” (singular) in Verse Thirteen from the “tongues” (plural) mentioned in Verse Five, Paul said that both (“he that speaketh with tongues” and “him that speaketh in an unknown tongue”) be required to “interpret”, and “if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church” [1 Corinthians 14:28]. WHY would both of the speakers be required to “interpret” unless they both were speaking in “tongues” (spoken languages) or “an unknown tongue” which were not known or understood by the hearers?

Thus the definition of “an unknown tongue” is a “tongue” (i.e. a spoken language) that is known to a speaker but is “unknown” to the hearers and not some so-called ‘heavenly language’ that neither the speaker nor the hearer knows or understands!’

The following completes your Post:
1Cor 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

1Cor 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

“I don't understand why the unbelievers would reject message in their language (v23), but not reject the prophecy (24)?

You'd think they would call the believers mad in both v.23, 24.”

To answer your question: The “unbelievers” rejected the message (in Verse 23) because it was spoken in “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) that they did not know or understand.

1 Corinthians 14:1 ¶ Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. {Compare to 1 Corinthians 14:23}

1 Corinthians 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

1 Corinthians 14:15 ¶ What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

The “unbelievers” (in Verses 24 & 25) could accept the message because it was spoken in a “tongue” (i.e. a spoken language) which they did know and understand.

1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1 Corinthians 14:26 ¶ How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

The key to understanding the Verses of Scripture which you cited is being able to discern the difference between the various meanings for the word “tongue” (i.e. a spoken language) or the word “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) in the Holy Bible; which requires a review of all of the verses where the words occur in the Bible.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
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. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:36 pm

George wrote:Aloha Brother Peanut gallery,

Sorry for the long delay in replying to your Post ...

Thanks; I know that here I do not get rote answers; I expect that time is taken to answer within context of scripture.  I do appreciate that, and well worth the wait time.  I usually check the Depository first before asking in the forum.


QUESTION: ... It is quite obvious that although the hearers did not know or understand the “unknown tongue” the speaker did!
...
The following completes your Post:
...
“I don't understand why the unbelievers would reject message in their language (v23), but not reject the prophecy (24)?
...
To answer your question: The “unbelievers” rejected the message (in Verse 23) because it was spoken in “tongues” (i.e. spoken languages) that they did not know or understand.
....
No. 3: “an unknown tongue” (a spoken language) that is known to a speaker but which the hearers do not know and can not understand (which serves no useful purpose, i.e. no edification or profit takes place, and which only leads to confusion, disorder, and chaos – unless it is interpreted).  

OK, I think I'm getting there; The Jews were requiring or expecting a sign in v.23, but the sign was not given them.
Why; because God wanted them to hear the prophecy in v.24?
I'll go through the post again, and see if I really went down the wrong path.

Thanks, and take care of your health.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby George » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:03 pm

Aloha Brother PG,

You probably know this, but the following may be of some help in your study of the Bible.

There is one word to always keep in mind when you read Scripture - WHO?

Like the “Wise Old Owl” you should always ask:

WHO – is speaking? (Always identify the speaker)

WHO – is being spoken to? (Always identify the intended audience, i.e. listeners, witnesses)

WHO – do the spoken words apply to? (The intended audience that is identified)

WHO – should follow & obey the spoken words? (Whoever the identified audience is)

WHO – is doing the writing? (Always identify the writer of Scripture)

WHO – is this written or addressed to? (Always identify the intended group or individual)

WHO – do the written words apply to? (The intended group or individual which are identified)

WHO – should follow & obey the written words? (Whoever the identified group or individual is)

If we, (as Bible believers), pay close attention to WHO is speaking (or writing), and WHO is being spoken (or written) to or WHO is being spoken (or written) about, much of the Holy word of God becomes clear. It’s called “rightly dividing the word of truth”.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

There are DIVISIONS in God's word and it is up to the sincere student of Scripture to identify those divisions and rightly divide God's Holy words in order to receive God's approval, so that we will not be ashamed at the Judgment Seat of the Lord Jesus Christ. Because of this verse (and others), I do not take God's words lightly; and I am aware of my duty to Almighty God to responsibly present His Holy word according to His dictates and not according to my own private opinions or interpretations. The trouble with most of today's Christians (especially those in leadership positions in the churches of God), they have no fear of God and do not "tremble at his word".

Isaiah 66:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Isaiah 66:5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.


Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:03 pm

George wrote:Aloha Brother PG,

You probably know this, but the following may be of some help in your study of the Bible.

Thanks, will do.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:23 pm

There is one word to always keep in mind when you read Scripture - WHO?

WHO – is speaking? (Always identify the speaker)
Paul

WHO – is being spoken to? (Always identify the intended audience, i.e. listeners, witnesses)
To Corinthians Gentiles and Jews;
1Cor 10:1 the audience seems to be the Jews
1Cor 12:2 the audience seems to be the Gentiles.



WHO – do the spoken words apply to? (The intended audience that is identified)
At that point in time: applied to christians.
Today: applies to all saved believers; only if tongues and prophecy would apply today.


WHO – should follow & obey the spoken words? (Whoever the identified audience is)
Every one to whom was given a spiritual gift; in this context, tongues and prophecy.

WHO – is doing the writing? (Always identify the writer of Scripture)
1Cor 16:24  ... Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus, and Timotheus.

WHO – is this written or addressed to? (Always identify the intended group or individual)
To Corinthians Gentiles and Jews;
1Cor 10:1 the audience seems to be the Jews
1Cor 12:2 the audience seems to be the Gentiles.


WHO – do the written words apply to? (The intended group or individual which are identified)
At that point in time: applied to christians.
Today: applies to all saved believers; only if tongues and prophecy would apply today.


WHO – should follow & obey the written words? (Whoever the identified group or individual is)
Every one to whom was given a spiritual gift; in this context, tongues and prophecy.
.............................................................
The Corinthians were misusing tongues v.23, and it was evidenced by those who claimed they were mad?
1Cor 14:23  If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
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