Tongues vs prophesy

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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby Chette » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:56 pm

Peanut said "The Corinthians were misusing tongues v.23, and it was evidenced by those who claimed they were mad?
1Cor 14:23  If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"

This would have to be your opinion or assumption as Paul never said anyone said they were mad or called them mad.  He questions  the they might come in and say they are mad if they all speak with tongues.

be careful of pretexting a text with an assumption or opinion as that is adding to the word of God.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:47 pm

Chette wrote:...
This would have to be your opinion or assumption as Paul never said anyone said they were mad or called them mad.  He questions  the they might come in and say they are mad if they all speak with tongues.

be careful of pretexting a text with an assumption or opinion as that is adding to the word of God.

Thanks; back to studying passage.
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby George » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:17 pm

Aloha Brother Peanutgallery,

I appreciate your excellent reply to my post. I just have a few comments to add to your reply.
There is one word to always keep in mind when you read Scripture - WHO?

WHO – is speaking? (Always identify the speaker)
Paul

I agree with you - your answer is generally correct, but it is not very specific.
WHO – is being spoken to? (Always identify the intended audience, i.e. listeners, witnesses)
To Corinthians Gentiles and Jews;

1Cor 10:1 the audience seems to be the Jews
1Cor 12:2 the audience seems to be the Gentiles.

Your answer is generally correct. However a more appropriate answer would be:

"WHO – is being spoken to? (Always identify the intended audience, i.e. listeners, witnesses)"

The Epistle is specifically addressed to: “the church of God which is at Corinth” [1 Corinthians 1:2], which would include both Jews and Gentiles. However the Letter had a wider and more general application: “to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours”.

{Within the Epistle there are specific instructions and general instructions to the church of God; and references to the Jews in the Old Testament and the Jews that were living during Paul’s time. There were also references to the Gentiles who were living during Paul’s time.}

WHO – do the spoken words apply to? (The intended audience that is identified)

At that point in time: applied to Christians.
Today: applies to all saved believers; only if tongues and prophecy would apply today.

Your answer is generally correct, but, again, it is not specific enough.

"WHO – do the spoken words apply to? (The intended audience that is identified)"

Although Paul’s Epistle is specifically addressed to “the church of God which is at Corinth” for the edification of the saints, not everything that is written within the Letter is necessarily applicable to Christians: that’s where “rightly dividing the word of truth” [2 Timothy 2:15] comes in. For instance: if Paul quoted an Old Testament text (i.e. a Law, an Ordinance, a Prophecy, etc.) which was in reference to the Jews and only applicable to Jews, that specific quote may not have been applicable to Christians.  
WHO – should follow & obey the spoken words? (Whoever the identified audience is)

Every one to whom was given a spiritual gift; in this context, tongues and prophecy.

I believe that you have rightly divided the context and there is nothing that I could add to your answer that would improve what you said.
WHO – is doing the writing? (Always identify the writer of Scripture)
1Cor 16:24  ... Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus, and Timotheus.


The scriptural text in 1 Corinthians 16:24 does not identify who physically wrote the Epistle. The addendum following the text claims that ‘Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus, and Timotheus’ wrote the Epistle. However, we have no idea who wrote the added addendum, and there is no Scripture to support the notion that those four men physically wrote the Letter! The following treatise is a brief review some of the addendums which appear at the end of some of the Apostle Paul’s epistles.

THE WRITTEN ENDINGS TO SOME OF THE APOSTLE PAUL’S EPISTLES

In the Holy Bible, the written endings (Addendums: often recorded in a different Font; a smaller type face; and without Chapter and Verse references) to some of Paul’s Epistles were added at a later date and are not Scripture; and as such are not to be trusted as to their veracity.

NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK OF ROMANS
Romans 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

The testimony given in Romans 16:22 is a genuine part of the Holy record of Scripture (and not an addendum at the end of the Epistle). The testimony is crystal clear, and there can be no doubt that “Tertius” . . . “wrote this epistle”; however “Tertius” is not the author of the Epistle, he is only acting as the Apostle Paul’s amanuensis, since the very first verse in the Epistle clearly identifies who the letter is from (i.e. “Paul”). Romans 1:1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

British Dictionary definitions for amanuensis
Amanuensis / əˌmænjʊˈɛnsɪs / noun (pl) - ses (-siːz)

1. a person employed to take dictation or to copy manuscripts


The Apostle Paul (under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit) is the author of all of his Epistles; regardless of who may have physically recorded them [2 Peter 3:15-16].

The following is brief review of the addendums at the end of some of the Apostle Paul’s Epistles.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF ROMANS (16 Chapters)
Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

The addendum may be true, but there is no way that it can be substantiated by Scripture.

NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK OF 1 CORINTHIANS (16 Chapters)
1 Corinthians 16:21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.

The testimony given in 1 Corinthians 16:21 is a genuine part of the Holy record of Scripture (and not an addendum at the end of the Epistle). From the testimony given in 1 Corinthians 16:21 and especially in 2 Thessalonians 3:17: [2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.] it is obvious that the Apostle Paul may not have always physically written all of his Epistles. However (according to 2 Thessalonians 3:17), at the very least, Paul always wrote “the salutation” to his Letters with his “own hand” as a “token in every epistle” of their genuineness.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF 1 CORINTHIANS (16 Chapters)
"The first epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi by Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus, and Timotheus."

Did Paul actually use four (4) amanuenses to record the Book of First Corinthians? If he didn’t, where would someone possibly get the idea that those four men wrote the Epistle? Is it just a coincidence that Timotheus is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 16:10; and Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus are mentioned in 1 Corinthians 16:17? Since there is no record in the Scriptures themselves as to who physically wrote the Book of First Corinthians, it is obvious that some inexperienced scribe added the addendum to a Bible manuscript at a later date; and since he had no scriptural evidence as to who recorded the Epistle, he just grabbed some names that showed up in the last Chapter of the Book and presumptuously inserted them in the addendum without any evidence as to who actually recorded the Epistle. And later scribes continued the practice.  

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF 2 CORINTHIANS (13 Chapters)  
"The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas."

Again, did Paul actually use two (2) amanuenses to record the Book of Second Corinthians? If he didn’t, where would someone possibly get the idea that those two men wrote the Epistle? Since none of Paul’s companions are mentioned in the last Chapter of the Book of Second Corinthians (i.e. Chapter Thirteen), we must search the Scriptures to find out how someone came up with the idea that Titus and Lucas wrote the Book of Second Corinthians.

Titus is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 2:13; 7:6, 13-14; 8:6, 16, 23; and 12:18. And it is clear from those verses that he had joined up with the Apostle Paul at Philippi. And although Lucas (i.e. Luke) is not mentioned by name in the Epistle, a review of Acts Chapters 16 through 20 reveals that Luke (who never mentions himself by name in the Gospel of Luke or in the Book of Acts) had remained in Philippi for quite some time (See “us” & “we” in Acts 16:10-17) during which time Paul finished his travels on his second missionary journey and he was well into his third missionary journey [Acts 16:18 through to Acts 20:4] before he actually rejoined Luke at Philippi (See “us” & “we” in Acts 20:5-6).

The scriptural record demonstrates that both Titus and Lucas (i.e. Luke) were with the Apostle Paul in Philippi around the time that he wrote his Second Epistle to the Corinthians, and so the scribe who wrote the addendum assumed (without any scriptural support) that Titus and Lucas must have written the Epistle!

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF GALATIANS (6 Chapters)
"Unto the Galatians written from Rome."

Whoever wrote this addendum did not speculate as to who wrote (or recorded) it.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF EPHESIANS (6 Chapters)
"Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus."

Tychicus is mentioned in the last Chapter of the Book of Ephesians [Ephesians 6:21]; and so whoever wrote the addendum assumed he must have written the Epistle! Of course there is no scriptural support for his assumption!

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF PHILIPPIANS (4 Chapters)
"It was written to the Philippians from Rome by Epaphroditus."

Epaphroditus is mentioned in the last Chapter of Philippians [Philippians 4:18]; and so whoever wrote the addendum assumed he must have written the Epistle! Of course there is no scriptural support for his assumption! A PATTERN appears to be emerging concerning some these addendums?
     
AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF COLOSSIANS (4 Chapters)
"Written from Rome to the Colossians by Tychicus and Onesimus."

Tychicus and Onesimus are mentioned in the last Chapter of Colossians [Colossians 4:7-9]; and so whoever wrote the addendum assumed they must have written the Epistle! Of course there is no scriptural support for his assumption! The PATTERN appears to be is holding.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF I THESSALONIANS (5 Chapters)
"The first epistle unto the Thessalonians was written from Athens."

Whoever wrote this addendum did not speculate as to who wrote (or recorded) it.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF II THESSALONIANS (3 Chapters)
"The second epistle to the Thessalonians was written from Athens."

Whoever wrote this addendum did not speculate as to who wrote (or recorded) it.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF I TIMOTHY (6 Chapters)
"The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana."

Whoever wrote this addendum did not speculate as to who wrote (or recorded) it.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF II TIMOTHY (6 Chapters)
"The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time."

According to the Holy Bible, Timotheus (i.e. Timothy) was an Evangelist [2 Timothy 4:5]. There is no scriptural record of his having been “the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians”. {I suspect a Roman Catholic connection to whoever wrote the addendum.}

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF TITUS (3 Chapters)
"It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia."

Although the Scriptures do not assign a title to Titus (or his ministry), since he performed the same ministry as Timothy, there is a good chance that he also was an Evangelist. However, regardless of Titus’ title, there is no scriptural record of his having been “the first bishop of the church of the Cretians”. {Again, I suspect a Roman Catholic connection to whoever wrote the addendum.}

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF PHILEMON (1 Chapter)
"Written from Rome to Philemon, by Onesimus a servant."

Onesimus is mentioned in the only Chapter of the Book of Philemon [Philemon 1:10]; and so whoever wrote the addendum assumed he must have written the Epistle (still following the PATTERN). Of course, like some of the other addendums, there is no scriptural support for his assumption! In addition, the whole Epistle concerns Onesimus having possibly wronged Philemon. There is no chance that Paul would have had Onesimus write (or record) a letter which concerned Onesimus personally. The obvious lack or spiritual discernment on the part of the person who wrote the addendum is appalling!

The Apostle Paul mentions that he personally wrote “the salutation” to his Epistles “with mine own hand” in two of his Epistles.

1 Corinthians 16:21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.

2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.


In Galatians, and again in Philemon, Paul emphasizes the fact that he personally wrote the Epistles “with mine own hand”.

Galatians 6:11 ¶ Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

Philemon 1:19 I Paul have written it with mine own hand, I will repay it: albeit I do not say to thee how thou owest unto me even thine own self besides.

From the Apostle Paul’s own testimony [in 1 Corinthian 16:21; Galatians 6:11; 2 Thessalonians 3:17; and Philemon 1:19] it appears that Paul had an amanuensis physically write most of his Epistles; although he would at least write “the salutation” as a “token in every epistle”. There is much speculation (amongst the scholars) as to why Paul did this; and no one knows why for sure.  

Although the author of the Book of Hebrews is not mentioned in the Holy Bible, I have provided what is written at the end of the Book as an additional example.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS (13 Chapters)
"Written to the Hebrews from Italy by Timothy."

Timothy is mentioned in the last Chapter of the Book of Hebrews [Hebrews 13:13:23]; and so, again, whoever wrote the addendum assumed he must have written the Epistle! Of course there is no scriptural support for his assumption! {The PATTERN appears to be still holding.}

I have also included the end of the Book of 1 Peter because of the possibility that Silvanus might have been the Apostle Peter’s amanuensis in recording the Book.

AT THE VERY END OF THE BOOK OF I PETER (5 Chapters)
1 Peter 5:10 ¶ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
12 By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.


I will now finish my comments concerning your Post.
WHO – is this written or addressed to? (Always identify the intended group or individual)

To Corinthians Gentiles and Jews;

1Cor 10:1 the audience seems to be the Jews

1Cor 12:2 the audience seems to be the Gentiles.

Again, your answer is partially correct, but it is not specific enough.

"WHO – is this written or addressed to? (Always identify the intended group or individual)"

The Epistle is specifically addressed to: “the church of God which is at Corinth” [1 Corinthians 1:2], which would include both Jews and Gentiles. However the Letter had a wider and more general application: “to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours”.

WHO – do the written words apply to? (The intended group or individual which are identified)
At that point in time: applied to Christians.
Today: applies to all saved believers; only if tongues and prophecy would apply today.

Your answer is specific and I agree.
WHO – should follow & obey the written words? (Whoever the identified group or individual is)
Every one to whom was given a spiritual gift; in this context, tongues and prophecy.

Your answer is specific and I agree.

Brother PG, I want you to know that none of my comments are meant to be a criticism of your Post. When I was in the business of building houses back in the 1970’s & 80’s I was often accused (by fellow carpenters) of being ‘too fussy’ or ‘too finicky’ - and that might explain why I never made much money as a builder or contractorImage  . Being ‘finicky’ seems to be a part of my nature, and I believe that that habit has carried over into my studies of the Scriptures. I don’t mean to be overly judgmental or critical, but I like to dot all my i’s and cross all my t’s when I write my essays concerning specific scriptural subjects, issues, or matters. I am specific by nature because I want my Christian brethren to understand and be edified by what I write and not be confused.

I am still working on an additional part to my original post, and I hope to be able to finish the study soon and post it to the Forum. Between clearing snow and doing repairs and maintenance on the house that we live in I am limited to the time (and energy) that I can devote to my Bible studies. I’ll be 75 years old this June and this old house (i.e. tabernacle) ain’t what it used to be!

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
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. . . . . yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written . . . . . Romans 3:4
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Re: Tongues vs prophesy

Postby PeanutGallery » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:56 pm

George wrote:...
Brother PG, I want you to know that none of my comments are meant to be a criticism of your Post.

They are all positive criticism, never considered them to be negative criticism.
Again, thanks; keeps me on track.
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